TRANSCRIPT

Miko Brown (Miko/Miko's)

Okay. Alright, y'all, let's get started. Welcome! It's so good to see y’all’s faces. Thank you for joining us for this special Liberatory Research Q & A session with Dr. Zuri Tau, the founder of Liberatory Research and, also, Social Insights Research. So, we are very much looking forward to the conversation that we'll be able to have today. 

And, I think, you know, all of you are Liberatory Research E-Course alumni, and so we just wanted to have dedicated space where you can dive into some more of the detailed questions that you all may be holding that Dr. Zuri can answer. So, we're really looking forward to that here. And you all can feel free to... 

We'll have space for folks to kind of like raise their hand and speak up and share questions. Some folks shared questions ahead of time. You can also ask them again here in person, if you would like to speak directly to Dr. Zuri in that way. And then, you can also just send me some in the chat, too, so that way we can give those to Dr.  Zuri to answer. 

Alright, so I will go ahead and turn it over to Zuri then, so we can get started. 

Dr. Zuri Tau | she/her | Social Insights

Thank you, Miko, for that introduction. It's so good to see your faces again. Happy New Year! We are, I think, needing these spaces more than ever with where we are in this political moment. And I just feel…yeah, just absolutely thrilled to be with all of you, and I hope you're finding time to care for yourselves as we watch this news cycle and don't watch and then watch some more. 

So, yes, this is our Q & A at our last cohort's request. And, I'm super appreciative of y'all making time to be here and submit some questions in advance. And, as Miko mentioned, we'll be taking more questions. So, if you didn't have time to do that, that's fine, too. So, I will start maybe, Miko, if you want to work with the ones that we've already gotten, and then we'll just roll with it from there. Does that sound good? 

Miko Brown (Miko/Miko's)

That sounds great. So, I can start with a question here, and…I don't know, the name isn't always necessarily attached to the questions that we received. So, when I ask the question, if it's your question and you want to elaborate on it, you can feel free to do so. One of the questions here is someone says, “I'd like to know more about how to enact liberatory research principles in environments that have been historically oppressive, like academia.” 

This person is saying, yeah, “My research centers on pedagogical practices. And while I am aspirational anti-oppressive, I am wary of falling into outdated academic and research paradigms. How can I better evaluate my own practices and hold myself accountable to my values?” 

Great question. 

Dr. Zuri Tau | she/her | Social Insights

Yes. So good. This is a great question. I think, the first thing that came to mind was staying in community. That is huge. I just think that none of us ever, like, can do this work alone. We don't change in a silo. We don't just change, you know, these sort of ingrained in depth practices alone. 

So, I think, being here, taking the e-course, staying in contact with people in academia who do feel the same way that you do, I think, is really important. I think, practically, I would recommend seeking out and developing relationships with professors who understand your values. Maybe they either have work that you're interested in doing and you know they're going to be doing it in a way that is more liberatory or more with an eye toward equity and focused on not just what the research is requiring, but what participants are interested in learning and getting from it, as well. 

I think, sometimes, it is hard to find those types of folks in academia, honestly. And so, I think being really clear about what the academy offers and what it doesn't, and you may have to cultivate some of those research relationships outside of your department. Sometimes, it's like, “Alright, nobody in this sociology or social work department is really doing work in a way that I can get behind or believe in. Maybe I need to go over to the Women's Studies Department. Maybe I need to go over to the African American Studies Department. I think there's always, there's people there. You just have to take time to find them. 

And then, lastly, I would recommend…there's a resource on the Social Insights website from a workshop that I did several years ago that's called “Decolonizing Research” and it has a list of questions to ask yourself. And so, Miko will put that link in the chat. For some reason, Safari doesn't like the link, but Chrome and other browsers do. So, I looked at it recently and I was like, “Oh, that's so strange!” So, if it says it's blocked, just try another browser. But, if you scroll through there you can see all the slides and there are some questions that I come back to myself, often, and I think could be really useful for you going forward. 

Miko Brown (Miko/Miko's)

Are there any follow up questions to that specific question and what Dr. Zuri answered? 

Jasmine Edwards (she/her/hers)

If no one else claims this, I think it was mine.  I was looking around like…yeah, it sounds a lot like me anyways. That was...Thank you so much, Dr. Zuri. That was very resonant. And, I do have a little bit of a follow up about another kind of experience I'm having in academia where I'm working with an advisor who I'm kind of figuring out like supports me, maybe is empathetic but, like, really isn't ingrained and maybe doesn't necessarily understand me. 

And, I think, I'm only, like, developing that kind of discernment, I think, between somebody who supports me theoretically first, like truly believes in what I could possibly bring to bring forward. And, I don't know if there's another maybe…like, I feel like what you just offered still really relates to that, like finding other people, other kinds of supports in the academy. 

But, I don't know, I'm curious about if you had an experience like that before. Like that difference between somebody who's really aligned versus somebody who, like, theoretically, “Wow, it's so great to have a woman of color here who's interested in liberatory practice.” That's kind of how I feel right now. Yeah.

Dr. Zuri Tau | she/her | Social Insights

Yeah. I honestly will say, I think most people have this experience in a PhD program when you're coming in with a  more liberatory mindset. And, because academia—I think, especially, when you're talking about a PhD—often attracts a certain type of person. And so, it is pretty…I would say I experienced that a lot. 

I had one advisor on my PhD committee that was supportive of me and that was because I knew her, she was at a college in Boston and she agreed to be on my committee. I did not have committee members at my university that were, like, super supportive and, like, active around making sure that I got what I needed to, like, get across the finish line. 

And even, I mean one of my professors, like she was great for a little while and then I think politically, honestly she just really liked working with men. So, my last year when I was working on my dissertation, she, like, gave me to another professor but didn't tell me. And, the work that I was going to be doing was like TA-ing (teaching assistant) for, like, a freshman class with, like, 150 people, while I was supposed to be writing my dissertation and she did not tell me. 

So, I ended up…like, the decision was okay, like, you either take on this work, be super overwhelmed…It was also during the summer and I'm a mom, so it was like I also had kids at home. It was the worst! And, I think it was very hurtful because she did make it seem like she was super supportive of me and then did this, didn't tell me. I actually found out from another student that was like, “Oh, you're going to be working with such and such!” And, I was like, “Am I? I don't work with them.” And, they're like, “Oh, the professor told me you were.” So, that's how I found out after working with this person for three years. And, it was another woman. 

So, yeah, I can't say I'm surprised. I think how you respond will truly depend on your…It's like your personality dictates your response. Because there was another Black woman who was also in the program with me at the same time. She also had a bad experience. But her response, her strategy was very different. 

My strategy was, “Okay, I'm going to give up my funding for this last year, and I'm going to pay out of pocket for dissertation hours so that I don't have to teach and TA on this class in the most intense time of my program.” So, that was my strategy. I was just like, you know, “F it! Like, I'm not dealing with this. I can't deal with it.” Right. And then what my colleague did was…ended up just like firing people from her committee, advocating to get new committee members, and then bringing them up to speed on her work, which took more time. Right. But, she was… like, that was her personality to be like, “You're wrong. You're wrong. And, y'all better give me new people to work with.”

So, I think, do a little bit of soul searching about how you want to approach it. And, I think, just continue to find people outside of that space who can be there for you when it gets hard. 

Jasmine Edwards (she/her/hers)

Thank you for sharing that. I'm sorry that it happened to you, and that it's so common, but I really appreciate your sharing. 

Dr. Zuri Tau | she/her | Social Insights

Of course. 

Anne Katahira

Can I add a follow-up? Oh, sorry! You have your hand up. 

Hallie McClain | NFG

Oh, no, it's okay! No worries. You can totally go, Anne. 

Anne Katahira

Okay. Very quickly. So, this all brings up so many things, and I'm just noticing all the feelings and where they feel in my body of, like, so many similar experiences. Not necessarily in academia, but in consulting, in philanthropy, all these spaces. It's like…it's such a strong pattern and, especially, of having women of color honestly perpetuate…it's like so much more harmful, right. 

Dr. Zuri Tau | she/her | Social Insights

Yes.

Anne Katahira

When it looks like you and is speaking your language in some ways…it's like, it's so confusing and hard to stay centered sometimes. 

Dr. Zuri Tau | she/her | Social Insights

Mhmm. 

Anne Katahira

But , actually, I'm having a…what's coming through strongest is I have this, like, parent question happening, which is my son has just decided—who's a sophomore in college—that he wants to be a therapist. So. And, it's also taking all these research methods courses right now. And so, I'm just curious for those of you who have been this far along in this work—because that is not my background—you know, if you could have done anything differently, I mean, and there's something you…it's like not to say any one person can change all of these systems or anything, but if there's anything like that you wish you would have known just about what you could control in your own expectations or perspectives or any tips anyone has. 

But, specifically, Dr. Zuri, if you have any thoughts on, like, if you knew…if there was something you wish you knew now that you…before you went into these worlds, that you wish you knew then, that you know now that you might impart upon us, I would appreciate that. 

Dr. Zuri Tau | she/her | Social Insights

That's such a good question. Is your son doing, like, master's level programs? 

Anne Katahira

This is an undergrad, but he's already thinking...He just thinks ahead, like, “In 10 years, I'm going to be doing this!” Where did you come from? That's not my way of thinking. 

Dr. Zuri Tau | she/her | Social Insights

Yeah, I love that. I love that. So, I went to school first for social work and then got my license, my LMSW license, after. So, I think my journey to be a therapist was entirely different from my PhD journey! I think a lot of it depends on your program. I think choosing your program wisely is probably the first thing. 

I feel like I did as good of a job as I could with the parameters that I was working within. But, my advice would be to do as much research on who the professors are and what their frameworks are that they're using. Even if they let you talk to former graduates, sometimes they'll allow you to do that when you're an applicant. 

All of those things are like really good initial steps, so that, instead of getting caught up on, you know, the bells and whistles of how they're marketing the program, actually talking to people who are in it. Because one program can be great and ranked highly. It's just not good for what you want to do individually. 

So, I'm always going to root for a social work therapy degree. That's just my personal plug because it's a very flexible degree. And, you have two levels of licensure. Your LCSW, then your, I mean your LMSW, then your LCSW. And, yeah, so I think with the PhD, I came back as, you know, a fully grown person with, like, kids and, you know, very different responsibilities. 

And so, and I also had like a community and other places where I was gathering like my self worth and where I had spaces to go and cry and be frustrated and other places that it was, like, I had my movement people. Like, I didn't necessarily have to lean on my classmates for emotional support, right, or even to feel like my work was valuable. And so, I think, you know, at a PhD level, it was really helpful for me to wait. When I was younger, I considered going right to a PhD, which I think is really difficult when you don't have, like, work history or, like, other communities that you can pull from. 

And so, those would be my recommendations. I mean, I talked to people who got their PhD before I applied to get into my program and they were like, “If you can do anything else, do that. They're like, if you can do your work without getting this PhD, we recommend it.” 

And I was just like, “That is…I mean, you know, whatever!” And, I completely agree with that advice, but no one's going to follow it. No one follows it. No one's like, “You know what, you're right. Let me cancel that application.” Because once you kind of have your eye on it, it's there. So, I think you don't figure out like how absolutely bananas a PhD experience is because the master's experience, going to be a therapist, getting your master's, doing your internships and your clinical hours, as long as you have, like, a good placement and you have a good advisor, it's beautiful. Yeah.

I think, Hallie, you had a question?

Hallie McClain | NFG

I did. I'm wondering if maybe I will seed it just to see how much time we have left because it is one of those things where I think it builds on the last two questions and I think I was just curious about specific departments or folks that you might point someone to if they are also on the fence of a PhD. 

And, like, having heard “If you can do anything else, like you should do that. You could survive it, but it would be awful.” And like, do I actually just, like, want to be a part of a radical book club? Or, like, do I actually just, like, need to get involved in, like, some kind of Stop Cop City, you know, happening in Washington? 

So, I think I'm just curious about that. So, maybe I'll just, like, leave it for now and then if there's time later or I can follow up after. 

Dr. Zuri Tau | she/her | Social Insights

Okay. All right, well, we'll put a pin on the bulletin board and then pass back to Miko. 

Miko Brown (Miko/Miko's)

Yeah, I think…And, I will also, if it's okay…I think I might just briefly share. I was on the path to be a therapist. I was in a clinical psych PsyD program and then I left in part because I took a year break between undergrad and the PsyD program that exposed me to… 

I did AmeriCorps, so I was, like, in community doing, like, direct community service work. And so, I think then when I had that break and then when I went into the PsyD program doing therapy, I kind of felt restricted from engaging in and contributing to some of the larger systemic change that I realized that the clients I was seeing were impacted by. 

So, I don't know what that has specifically to offer in terms of answering your question, but just wanting to say that I left a doctoral program, right, because I had that kind of awareness of like, “Oh, I feel restricted! I just want to do non profit work,” even though it had its own pitfalls, at the time, right. So, and I know other folks who have done that too, right. So, sometimes,part of  the process is, like, you do it and then you kind of figure out what is or isn't best for you. So, will just name that. But, thank you all for those questions. 

So, yes, we have another one, which I think, Jasmine, I think this is you too, maybe. It says…

Jasmine Edwards (she/her/hers)

I noticed I registered a billion times because I couldn't remember if I registered or not, so I’m sorry.

Miko Brown (Miko/Miko's)

No, these are all great questions. So, this one says, “I noticed that there was little reference to IRBs in the papers we reviewed in the course, and I'm curious how that works. I understand differences between program eval and research, and with my profession being in music therapy, the lines can easily be blurred and, as it seems the main distinction is whether or not we aim to publish the findings in a journal…that is the main distinction, entering it into the research plus IRB realms. But, for example, the Amazon Workers study was presented as a PAR research study and I'm eager to know how I could possibly engage this kind of work outside of some of these more institutional parameters that serve in such gatekeeping capacity and often require us to introduce research mechanisms we would not normally have in our research, but we can't get approved of in any other capacity.” 

Right. So, I think the heart of that being hearing more about IRBs in relation to all this. 

Dr. Zuri Tau | she/her | Social Insights

Yeah, thanks, Kate. This is a good question. So, where to start? So, yes, I think most of the studies that we use in the course are not IRB approved. And, IRB is just shorthand for Institutional Review Board, as a reminder. And, that institution can be independent or it can be an academic institution. 

Generally, they're academic institutions, but there's also independent firms that you pay to review your research. I think most people utilize…most people who are in private research settings only use IRBs when there are vulnerable populations, when their client requests it, or if it's, you know, some sort of, like, morally ambiguous or if they're…yeah, or if there's the possibility that the researchers might want to publish it in an academic journal. Although, I will say, when I was a managing editor for an academic journal, we didn't necessarily ask people if…we didn't ask people for their IRB approval. So, it depends on the journal, as well. 

So, I think if you are wanting to do, like, that type of, you know, research that Blu and that Seeta and that whole team is doing, it's absolutely possible. I think it's just finding the independent research groups that are doing that type of work. At Social Insights, we generally don't do IRBs. A lot of our work is right at the intersection of research and evaluation and we're not an academic institution, so we're not necessarily trying to publish our findings. We're not climbing the academic ladder, so we're less concerned about it. Our focus is meeting our clients’ deadlines. IRBs, generally, take a while to get your stuff through. And, often, when we have utilized an IRB at a client's request, it ends up getting kicked back to us anyway because it doesn't meet the requirements of a research study with human subjects, it's, generally, an evaluation. 

And people just want…some clients just want to be able to say that they had a ruling from an independent IRB. So, hopefully that was helpful. 

Kate Myers-Coffman

Yeah, it makes sense. A lot of my research is with youth, so that's how that ends up getting involved. But I kept on… I literally would text Jasmine, like, “There's another one without an IRB! How is this happening?! How can I do something like this without the parameters?” Because even like a lot of the institutions that I've worked at, they have a separate IRB for PAR research and that still seems to be not fully understood. Like, whenever you're trying to do community engaged stuff, you're still getting kickback on questions. And then they're like “Well put this in.” And, I'm like, “Well, I don't want to because this isn't what this needs.” But, then you have to and then you burden...So, it's just like how do you toe the line? 

But, it's different now that, you know…Well, I'll say it's different for me because I'm not…my long term trajectory is not to stay in academia, it's to get out of academia. And so, I don't feel the pressures of like publishing high impact journals and things like that. So, when I see a white paper or brown paper, like, if I see those, I'm like, “Well, that's publishing, that's disseminating it to the public and getting that information out.” 

And, if the only difference is just like the vehicle of how that gets about coupled with what you're studying…and in therapy we're often, you know, working with delicate personal things. Also, people are asking us to say look at our affective experience, look at this like let the people know what we're going through, like shine this out, you know, put this in an art space study where we could talk about it and like perform it and do all this stuff. 

Then I still am like, “How do I…?” They're asking for that and they're seeking that. Is it only… have I been so, like, consumed by those parameters of you have to put the research through this funnel in order for it to happen, if everybody else is seeking that and asking you for that and they don't even want to go through something like that? They just want to be like, well why can't you do this, you know, kind of thing? So it's, I feel like the heavy academic side being like, “Oh, this is what you have to do.” And then, this course has been like, “Well, maybe with exception.” 

Dr. Zuri Tau | she/her | Social Insights

Yeah, no, absolutely there are exceptions. And I think there's a lot of places to publish that aren't academic journals. And so, I think that's important. I think academia is incentivized to make it seem like your writing is only worthy if it's in a peer reviewed journal. I just don't think that's true. 

I think there are white papers, there's brown papers, there's quarterlies like the Nonprofit Quarterly, there's the Stanford Social Innovation Review, there's all these different types of magazines and publications and your research doesn't have to be limited to academic boundaries. So, I would encourage you to resist as much as you can. And, when you do need an IRB, there are the independent IRBs that, you know, you can explore that won't be as annoying as a college IRB will be. Yeah. 

Kate Myers-Coffman

I’ve either worked with hospital IRBs or academic and both equally suck. 

Dr. Zuri Tau | she/her | Social Insights

Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. And, I mean the last thing I'll say about this and I'm happy to, you know, talk about it more, but I think, again, thinking about your goals and also thinking about how you can publish things in a way that is anonymized and confidential and you're doing anecdotal storytelling, you know, that is, that's respecting people and respecting their privacy and not endangering them, right. And, yeah, I would just say if your long term goal is not necessarily to make a career in academia, then it's less important for you to have a CV with a ton of, you know, research articles on there. 

Kate Myers-Coffman

Thank you. 

Miko Brown (Miko/Miko's)

We also have a question submitted from Ida here asking for additional reading recommendations outside of what was supplied within the course that focus on challenging the separation of power between the researcher and the participant/population. Ida’s dissertation is on Black feminist thought and is aiming to use research as support for liberatory research methods. 

I don't know if there's more you want to elaborate on Ida, but… 

Ida Campbell-Jones

I don't know if we have time. But that was my question, I guess. Yeah. So, my dissertation focuses on the lived experiences of Black women in hip hop culture and Black music culture. So, I am in sociology and there's not a lot of really…there's not a lot that I can really work with within what I've been given from my department in terms of methods and, like, the importance of being within the community that you research and, like, kind of… 

I can't remember the title of the article that we discussed in the course, but it was about like not about, but it kind of just made me think of like removing that wall between the research participant and the researcher and not really looking at it as a place of exploitation or like, “I'm doing this, I'm publishing this work just because I'm someone who publishes work.” And, like, I want to do this for the sake of community and, like, I kind of…I don't have a lot to work with in terms of what I've been given for that. 

So, like, if you have anything that I could use in terms of support for that, that would be great. 

Dr. Zuri Tau | she/her | Social Insights

Yes, I hear you. My dissertation also was built on…part of my canon was the Black feminist canon and, so, I did find Indigenous research methods really helpful in my work, as well. There's one book that I really love, Research as Resistance. It's by…well, it's edited by Leslie Brown and Susan Strega. 

It's actually on our resources page on our Liberatory Research website. I absolutely love that book. There's a lot of…there's different chapters where people are talking about how they are doing…they’re essentially practicing liberatory and Indigenous methodologies in a critical, anti-oppressive way. So, I would recommend that one. I'm assuming that you are using Black Feminist Thought by Patricia Hill Collins? 

Yeah. Yeah. So, that, I mean, that one's great because of course she talks about, like, why we do research from the perspective of the people who are most impacted by intersecting oppressions, right. So, I think that is an awesome one. Trying to think what may also be helpful… 

Ida Campbell-Jones

I've been engaging with works on storytelling and, like, Black storytelling and how that is, like, a legitimate form of knowledge and, like, data. But, I probably have found one or two. One or two. So…

Dr. Zuri Tau | she/her | Social Insights

Look, I hear you. I'm going to give you two more. 

Ida Campbell-Jones

I'm just now remembering the website. So, that is extremely refreshing. 

Dr. Zuri Tau | she/her | Social Insights

Yay! Okay, good. Yeah. So, if you're on that site, I would recommend the Black Women in the Field book. Some of these are Amazon links which we need to update. So…but you can find that from the publisher. And then there's an article called “Endarkened Feminisms” which is probably a good resource for you, as well. 

Ida Campbell-Jones

Thank you so much. 

Dr. Zuri Tau | she/her | Social Insights

You’re welcome. 

Ida Campbell-Jones

I’ve been stuck on this. 

Dr. Zuri Tau | she/her | Social Insights

Yes, we got…we have a whole list and we also have…there's a Black feminist research syllabus that is more in depth than what you see on that main resource page. So, if you go on the site there, underneath “E-course”, you'll see “Syllabus” and there's several that you can access there. 

And there's an Indigenous research syllabus that I've been working on for a while but is not published yet, so…And, yes! I love that report [referencing a message in the chat]. That one is also on our…or at least it was on the last iteration of our research tools. So, I think it's on the site. We'll have to look around for it. But, if anyone does not know that report, I would recommend reading it. It's a good one. 

Alright. I think we have a little more time. Yeah? Okay! Yeah, let's get into it. 

Miko Brown (Miko/Miko's)

Are there any follow ups to that question or we can move on to another one here? Okay, we have one here: what are some notable projects or examples from Social Insights Research—right, Liberatory Research’s sister organization—that represent the practice of liberatory research principles? 

Dr. Zuri Tau | she/her | Social Insights

Yes, we have a lot of really good examples, but I'll talk about one. This one is a project that we've worked on…we're in our fourth year of working with Springboard for Opportunities. They run the oldest guaranteed income program for Black women in the...the oldest program—period—in the country. And their program specifically works with Black moms who live in public housing in Jackson, Mississippi. 

So, we did some really, you know…we made some clear moves that are in line with the liberatory research principles. And, I'll just go over them quickly. One was that we decided to… the methodology was as participatory as we could get it. We came on in their second year. So, I was really ambitious at the time, and I was like, “Well, why don't we train some of the moms who are alumni to become interviewers for this new evaluation?” 

So, we, with the help of the organization, recruited moms, trained moms, and then had them interview other parents who were in the program throughout the year. And then, in the following year, we actually hired one of the moms as a consultant to help us validate our data analysis. So, we had a mixed method study. So, we had photovoice, we had ecological momentary assessment. So, we had ongoing assessments every month where moms were checking in about their emotional state and, you know, how they and their family were doing, and we did that over nine months. We had focus groups and we had baseline surveys with post surveys. So, there was so much data. 

And, you know, we’re the “experts,” right? We're the ones with the degrees and the knowledge. However, because the context of living in public housing, parenting under really, really strained educational resources in Jackson, Mississippi…I don't know if you all remember, but there was a water crisis in Jackson. I mean, it's just a very challenging place to live—period—no matter how much money you have. 

So, we really wanted to have one of the moms be there with us as we made conclusions about the lives of people who were on the ground, right. So, I think that was just such a beautiful experience for our team. Something else that we did was we were really flexible. We were working with some new technology at the time where we wanted to do this EMA, this ecological momentary assessment, and there was an app that we were using. We trained all the moms, 100 moms in this training. Did this app. This app did not work, y'all. It just didn't work. And so, we scrapped it. We were like, “Alright, we spent this money. It's not working.” And then, we basically recreated our tools and worked with the moms to make sure they knew how to use it and just improvised. And, we were really innovative and we did that in a way that also respected that, one, that moms could pivot and, also, that we needed to give them a ton of time and support in order to use a different tool.

And, I think the last thing I'll add is that our team relationship was really strong. And, over the years, we've had different team members come in and out, but there's a lot of care, camaraderie, and attention paid to, like, our team dynamics. And, I think, we often talk about, like, what are we doing with clients or what are we doing with participants, but we don't think about, like, how you feel about the people that you work with can impact the way that you do the work. And so, we spent a lot of time and attention on that and celebrated a lot with our wins and empathized when we had crazy challenges. You know, just all types of stuff would happen. One year we were flying in to do focus groups and then like, the office flooded. So then, at the last minute, we had to, like, find a different place to do focus groups. 

And all sorts of crazy stuff has happened with that project. But, I think that's a really, really good example of doing liberatory research and doing it in a way that is not just about us and our client, but about the participants. And, we paid the moms for their engagement, as well. 

Miko Brown (Miko/Miko's)

Love that project. Awesome. Are there any follow-ups to what Dr. Zuri just shared about that work? 

Okay, so I see we have another question here about the “superpredators” video from the e-course and wanting to hear more of Dr. Zuri's takeaways from the video. Yeah, I think that's the heart of the question there. Yeah.

Dr. Zuri Tau | she/her | Social Insights

Okay. Anybody claiming that one? Okay. You want to expound on that?

Hallie McClain | NFG

Sure. You know, I think I was just having a lot of retributive feelings toward the folks that were in Fox and Dilulio. I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that correctly. And I was thinking of how we were talking about, you know, in our last course, like, trying to exercise the white supremacist within and I was also thinking about “Letting Go of Innocence.” 

And I think I was just…as I was watching it, it wasn't the first time I had seen it, but, in this context, it was just hitting really differently and I was really struggling and I wanted to kind of hold and alchemize those feelings of like, retribution. And I was also…yeah, just feeling like this feels more like a cautionary tale of how research and evaluation impacts material conditions and lives. And it feels, like, more than, like…you know.. Yeah, I just was like, I don't want to guess, maybe. I just kind of was curious about what you take away and what meaning you make from that. 

Dr. Zuri Tau | she/her | Social Insights

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for expanding that and sharing a little bit about where you're coming from. Does everybody remember that video, the “Who Created the Juvenile Superpredators?” video? So, I include that in the curriculum because it's in our section about power and accountability. And, I think one thing that…as I matured as a researcher, I really began to see, like, how powerful research could be when married to policy or, even,  when  just utilized for, you know, nonprofit interventions, government interventions, etc. 

And so, it's absolutely a cautionary tale! And, I think what's really fascinating about his story is that he did recognize and admit that he was wrong, right. I think what's really interesting about this is this wasn't just qualitative research. This was quantitative research. This was in a field that was supposed to be predicting behavior and behavior trends that essentially was picked up and utilized and had a life of its own, even after he understood that he was wrong. So, it really, I think, reminds us how impactful we can be in our work. Like, once we put it on wax, it's out there, right. Like, it continues and, now, even more so, right. 

Like, now we have a million different ways you can Google, ChatGPT. You can, you know, see the video, the corresponding social media account. Like, once something is out there, it's out there. So, I think it's a reminder to, one, don't feel like what you're doing is not powerful. It can be incredibly powerful. 

So, that's an encouragement that, you know, you may have a small report or a small idea or a small interview, and that ends up having a life of its own that impacts people in, like, a good, beautiful way, right. But, also, on the flip side, people make mistakes and we can make mistakes, too. And so, just remembering that, you know, to be intentional about our work as much as we can. 

And, as far as, like, feeling like you want to take revenge, this retributive aspect…Yeah. I was talking with the team earlier today. We had our staff meeting and I was reflecting on MLK—as you know, it was MLK day on Monday—and reflecting on his resistance to the idea of revenge and the cycle of hating and begetting more hate and revenge begetting more revenge. 

I am encouraging you and encouraging, you know, myself to find the strategy that doesn't wear at my soul. And I think there are options and I think there are…we've seen a million different ways to win and heal that don't have to…yeah, that don't have to take us outside of our values. 

Miko Brown (Miko/Miko's)

Thank you for that. So, we have this going until 15 after the hour. So, we do have more time for those who can continue to stay on. So, we have another question here about Social Insights’ fellowships and internships, the fellowship, specifically, here. Wondering: for the fellowships for early career professionals, would we ever consider fellowships for those who are still early-career but exist outside of the one to three year requirement, or do we know of other organizations that might offer something similar? 

Dr. Zuri Tau | she/her | Social Insights

Yes! So, I think we are always, like, changing and iterating our fellowship guidelines. I think it's just based on what we're seeing in our applicants. This time we had 250 applicants for this cohort. Yeah. Thank you! Thank you! So, it was a big applicant pool, even with, you know, the parameters that we have in place right now. 

So, I think what I would love to see is just more opportunities to get exposure to, like, project work or even just knowing what's happening behind the scenes. You know, it's just all about, like, our capacity and building the program up. I think something really exciting that Miko and I will be working on this year and launching this year are asynchronous courses and online courses that are not live, that are…there are some mini ones that we'll have and then like a longer one, right. 

So, that will be…have a lot of our sharing about the projects that we do at Social Insights and the methods and, you know, we'll be very in depth. So, that's something that we're doing to hold you over in the meantime. But I definitely see the value of, you know, if you've been doing it for five years, but, you know, you don't have that liberatory space that, you know, Social Insights offers. I think it is such a unique space and a unique gift and we really want to offer it to as many people as we can and we're working on it. 

Kate Myers-Coffman

Thank you. That was my question. 

Miko Brown (Miko/Miko's)

So, another question we have here is one about what some of the misconceptions are that you encounter about liberatory research and how you respond to those misconceptions. 

Dr. Zuri Tau | she/her | Social Insights

I think with…unfortunately, with the term “liberatory,” sometimes people automatically jump to race, and liberatory research isn't about race. Liberatory research is really about truth, epistemology, power, and privilege. It doesn't really matter so much about our personal identities when we're applying principles that are rooted in oppressive histories, right. Like, I have done things that are harmful in my research history. And, where liberatory research intervenes in that is by saying, “This is what you're thinking are good ways, and these are why they're not.” Right. So, it's an interruption into practice and a way of doing research and a way of thinking about research. It's really a way to critique the invisible assumptions that we have about truth and knowledge production. 

So, I think that's probably the most challenging misconception. But, I also think a lot of people do get it if you spend a little time, like, reading or, you know, just doing a little bit of scanning of the website. I think there's always going to be resistance to any critical approach just because there's so much momentum and consistency in academic spaces across, you know, cultures and countries, right. 

Like sociology, for example. Like, we have the same canon of, like, European theorists that everyone learns from, right, and you can see that in all types of fields. And so, the critique that, you know, liberatory research brings is that you're actually limited in your effective analysis when you limit your frameworks just to a particular group of people and a particular strain of thinking. It's actually just an argument about, like, how do we do the best research in the way that, you know, sometimes we'll break out of what we've been taught in the past. 

Miko Brown (Miko/Miko's)

Okay, so I'll go on to this next question. Yeah, Hallie's question still in the air. So, maybe I'll do one more question and then we can come back to that? Okay. I guess in some ways this is related a little bit to the last question, but curious to hear more about the challenges that you have faced in building Social Insights Research and Liberatory Research and how you've overcome those challenges. 

Dr. Zuri Tau | she/her | Social Insights

I will speak to a specific challenge with liberatory research, specifically. I think challenge is just a part of it, whenever you're building something, whenever you're, like, bringing an idea into reality, and out of your mind and out of your heart. I think that's fine and dandy. I love a good challenge, right.

So, I think my experience has been full of them. With liberatory research, though, this idea, really, that came after Social Insights, and it was about opening up the space beyond the people that we were working with in the firm. And, I was like, “Alright, I want to do this website. 

I want to have, you know, a curriculum. I want to teach people.” Like, I had a whole, like, really big, powerful, like, beautiful, inspiring vision, right. And, I was like, “And, I need some money to do this. So I'm going to apply for this fellowship. I'm going to get some help with this fellowship, you know, with this application.”

I mean, I spent so much time. I had, you know, people reviewing it for me. I had all sorts of metrics in there about how I was going to measure success of the liberatory research platform and work. And, I submitted it, and I was thrilled when they told me that I had gotten past that first round, So, I was like, “Okay, great!” 

Then, they asked for more stuff. So then, you know, I'm working on the proposal, giving them more stuff. So, I gave them my final submission, and probably, like, three months later, I found out that I did not get the fellowship. And so I was just like, “Ugh! What else could I have done?! 

And, I got an email from the executive director of the fellowship, and she was like, “Hey, if you want to talk about your application, I would love to talk about it. And I, you know, I think it was great. Blah, blah, blah.” I was salty. So I was just like, “I'm good, thanks.” I did not respond to that email. I was like, “Why are you sending me this? Like, I didn't get it. Move on. It's fine.” And then she emailed me again. I was like, “Okay, alright. Yes, sure, we can talk about how I didn't get your fellowship.” So, we got on a call, and she explained to me… 

I was like, “You know what…Yes, I would love to actually hear how I could improve this application and, like, talking about what the concept is.” And, she was like, “Oh. Like, there's no improvements.” She was like, “There's nothing wrong with your application.” I was like, “Oh, okay!” She was like, “The panel of decision makers that you see on the website, they only work on the first round. The final decision is actually left up to our board and our board is very corporate. And so, even though I recommended for you to win the fellowship, one of the fellowship slots, there were some men on the board who were just like, ‘We don't think this is an issue. Research not being neutral, the idea that you would need to, like, question these things and like, just, like, what is that? That's not a thing.’” 

And so, they just were like, “We don't get it. Maybe you can help her.” They told her, “Help her with their application. She can apply next year.” So, in that moment, you know, I put in all that work and to hear her say there was nothing more you could have done, I was just, like, shocked and angry and…But it also, like, reminded me that when you are doing work that resists the status quo, there's gonna be pushback. There's gonna be people who don't think it's valuable. They're gonna be like, “This is not worth investing in.” And so, what I ended up doing was, like, paring down all the things that I wanted to do and I started with a small website and just the e-course and, you know, here we are today, four years later. So, yeah, that was a challenge. 

Miko Brown (Miko/Miko's)

I'm glad that you continued on and that we're here. So, thank you for that. Yeah. Should we go back to Hallie's question? We got time. It's a good question. 

Dr. Zuri Tau | she/her | Social Insights

Yeah. Why don't we maybe close on that one and talk about a few more…like, what we're looking forward to in 2025 and then we'll say good night. 

Alright, Hallie. Remind us, please. 

Hallie McClain | NFG

Yeah! I was just curious if there are any departments, faculty, or even, like, programs that you would suggest someone that is interested in looking, just, like, peeking around and poking around should be looking for. And, I think, specifically, I would want to be studying like the web of feedback loops of the way that anti-Black stereotyping informs policy and then the way that that policy trickles down to interpersonal violence and, particularly, thinking about gender-based sexual violence against Black women. 

Dr. Zuri Tau | she/her | Social Insights

So, I don't have anything that's popping to the top of mind, but I do…I will tell you how I would go about figuring out the place and hopefully that is helpful. I think what I would probably do is I'm sure you have articles that you're reading already and, if you're not, even doing it again, doing a Google Scholar search and seeing who is writing about these topics. 

So, doing a Google Scholar search and then doing just a regular Google search about some of these topics and, also, playing around with, like, how you're describing it because sometimes people write about things and they use different words. So, like, for, like, with liberatory research, there's a lot of literature that's really helpful that's in the sociology of knowledge field, but if you've never heard that word, like, why would I Google that, right? 

So, it takes, like, a little bit of digging to find what keywords might help you get, like, the resources and articles. Then, once you figure out, like, who's writing, who's talking, who has a Substack, who has a Medium account, who has a Bluesky account…like, sometimes people, like, as we were talking about publishing, you know, it may take you a year to publish something that you're working on that you did research on three years ago, but you wrote about it on LinkedIn or you, you know, put it on Medium. 

So, thinking about, like, all the ways to find other people who are interested in what you're interested in and then just, like, reach out to people, ask them, you know, look at where they went to school. Reach out and say, “Hey, you know, I'm interested in studying this. This is my background. This is, you know, where I'm located. Curious if you would talk to me for like 15 minutes or, you know, maybe not talk. Maybe, you know, help me out. Where should I go to school, what program should I be engaged in?” I think most people will answer you and write back. 

And so, I would start with those methods and then once you have your list, exploring which of those might be a good fit for you. 

Hallie McClain | NFG

Thank you so much. 

Dr. Zuri Tau | she/her | Social Insights

You're welcome. Thank y'all for all your questions and attention and curiosity. This was really fun and I'm just so glad I get to see your faces again in 2025. So, I'll pass to Miko to share a little bit about what's coming up for the end of the year. This wasn't necessarily on our agenda, so I'm putting Miko on the spot a little bit. 

But I know Miko knows all these things, so, you know…

Miko Brown (Miko/Miko's)

It's all good. I mean, yeah, we're in January 2025, right? So, we have the whole year ahead of us. And it's, you know…very happy to be able to start the year with you all, but we have a lot of exciting things planned for the year ahead. I think, you know, a number of you all have been at some of the Liberatory Research in Action webinars that we did last year. We are going to continue those this year, but we'll also be sending out information about some alumni-specific Liberatory Research in Action webinars where you all will have the opportunity to submit a proposal about participating in one of these webinars and sharing about the work that you're doing, the liberatory research work that you're doing. 

We'll, also, be offering two additional cohorts of the e-course, one starting in March that we'll be opening registration for, and then we'll do another one in the fall, as well. I think those are some of the main things that'll be coming out. So, I think staying tuned to the Liberatory Research email list, we'll be sending out emails. If you're on Circle—Circle is something new that we started for this most recent cohort—we’ll be sharing information there and, of course, following on social media, as well, you'll see updates there. Zuri, I'm trying to think if there's anything else that would be important to share with the group here that I'm missing? 

Dr. Zuri Tau | she/her | Social Insights

I don't think so. We mentioned that we'll be publishing some new courses, so that's available, as well. We definitely invite people to come back. We've had people come back two times, maybe three. I think someone's come back three times, so it's different every time. Of course, the participants are different and then we have some new parts of the curriculum. 

And, what's nice about coming back…is, you know, getting to have that community. Also, if you're a repeat person, you do get a discount on your registration fee, unless you just want to give us…if your organization is paying for it, we always encourage people to just pay us the full amount so that we can pay our guests and, you know, make sure we have honorariums for people. 

So, yeah, we'd love to see you again in all of the spaces and please definitely stay in touch with us and follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn. We're out here publishing things. And yeah, don't be afraid to reach out if you're having a tough moment. I think that is the benefit of these spaces that, yeah, we know what you're going through and we're here for you. 

So, yes, that's our email. Hello@LiberatoryResearch.Org. Email us. 

Miko Brown (Miko/Miko's)

Yes! We appreciate you all. We appreciate your questions. Appreciate your time, Dr. Zuri. But yeah, there'll be more to come. So, we look forward to those opportunities for us to gather together again. 

Dr. Zuri Tau | she/her | Social Insights

Have a lovely weekend. Talk to you soon. 

Miko Brown (Miko/Miko's)

Have a good evening. Bye!